Discussing realistic Spy changes

[Goldmansbarn]

I would like to use this thread to discuss potential changes to spy. It is not lost on me that there has been a hot topic for quite some time. However, the bulk of comments on this subject have been largely unconstructive and made it difficult to hold reasonable dialogue on the issue of spy class balance.

The aim of this discussion is to identify areas that are most reasonable to target spy for balance related changes. I am going to start things off by first listing areas that seem, at first glance, to be justifiable areas to target for potential nerfs to the profession. I am not arguing that all of these areas should be targeted, instead, that at least some of them are candidates for toning down.

The List

1. Ambush/Snipe applying a 15 second -50% healing debuff + bleed/heat DoT

2. Advanced strikes debuff providing +20% damage increase to razor slash and blaster burst + 2% damage increase per stack up to a total of 5 stacks. This debuff lasts 20 seconds, the cool-down on razor slash and blaster burst is 3-4 seconds. Meaning there is a 16-17 second window for re-application.

3. Spy's fang applying Acid dots up to a stack of 6 (with 6k acid protection 1 stack = 346 acid dam, 2 stack = 639, 3 = 1039, 4 = 1386, 5 = 1732, 6 = 2079). The dot lasts 25 seconds and ticks 9 times. A successful dot application from spy's fang means a 6 second cool-down on that ability for re-application. This means there is a 19 second window for re-application.

4. Assassins mark applying a debuff to the target that gives, I believe, 10-35% depending on weapon type to trigger opportunistic attack for any player hitting this target. Opportunistic attack's damage scales based on weapon damage. You'll often see successful opportunistic attacks land for 300-1000 damage. On high crits and ST's this can hit for 2k.

5. Equilibrium currently refunds any action spent on an ability when that ability was dodged, parried, or missed.

6. Protective armor granting 300/600/900/1200 kin and ene armor for each point invested.

7. Balanced armor providing 5/10% dodge for each point invested.

8. Avoid damage, when used, gives 50% dodge and 75% evasion for 15 seconds, cooldown = 3 minutes.

9. Jagged edge increase critical damage by 5/10/15% for each point invested

10. Savagery debuff. For each critical attack against a target, that target gains a stack of savagery increasing critical damage dealt against them by 5% up to a 3 stack of 15%. This debuff lasts 20 seconds.

11. Decoy granting 11-12 second invulnerability to damage whilst decoy is up, cooldown = 3 minutes.

Edit - The term 'Invulnerability' is poor word choice at best and misleading at worst here. The damage is transferred to the decoy. There are circumstances in which this simply doesn't matter because attacking the decoy in practice is a waste of resources or benefits the spy. However, there are some circumstances in which killing the decoy is do-able, as Solvaxus points out, mind trick is can be useful for this. Group focus would be another.

12. Without a trace granting a period of 30 seconds where the spy is undetectable.

13. Burst of shadows providing a massive increase in speed for a lengthy 25 second duration. This is one of the best, if not the best, movement abilities in the game when paired with razor cat.

14. Preparation granting a 30% damage increase, action free shots for strikethroughs and critical hits on abilities. Lasts 15 seconds, cooldown is 4 minutes.

15. Razor cat set granting 100% snare and root immunity.

16. Detection issues with spies, particularly, its unreliability and problems detecting spies that are stacking as much camo as possible.

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It would be very easy for readers who dislike the spy profession to look at this list and claim that spy has too much going for it. Whilst I agree, I want to caution that such a list could likely be constructed for each profession and argued that they also have too much going for them. Still, some of the benefits listed above are problematic for spy as the benefits are over-tuned and the combination of all of them gives too much of an advantage to this profession.

This is not meant to be a complete list and I may be missing some important benefits that are worth considering for a nerf. However, those listed above are areas that players have consistently drawn attention to or seem to me to be worth discussing.

My concern about balancing this profession is that given the amount of hate this profession gets, players will ask for too much and nerf it into the ground. This concern also applies to my own thoughts about how to balance the profession, as such, any changes would need to be rigorously tested to ensure spy viability.

With that said, personally, I would like to see changes to the following:

My List

3. Spy's fang - cap the dot stack at 3, anything over this becomes completely unmanageable for professions that do not have a dot clear. Anything over this is really unnecessary as well due to the short cooldown on spy's fang, the duration of the dot, and the amount of dot ticks. The ability to stack this dot so quickly and within a 25 second window is far too strong.

4. Assassins mark - After talking with others, I believe this ability should have a recourse added to it. 3 seconds minimum to see if it is sufficient for balancing. The recourse should be added to the defending player, not the attacking target in my view. For those around in the early NGE you will remember how broken reactive heals were due to no recourse, assassin's mark is doing something similar for damage.

5. Equilibrium - This box might be the single best box in the game. It isn't linked to any other boxes and essentially allows spy to be careless with action management. I would reduce the chance to refund action on parry and dodge from 100% to 50% or lower and remove the miss chance refund from the box. In doing so, spies would have to start making serious decisions about picking up action reduction exotics and potentially stacking strength to reduce miss chance.

12. WoT duration - I believe this should be reduced from 30 seconds to 10 seconds. The 30 second window here essentially guarantees that a good spy will be able to reset the fight. This sort of get out of jail free ability makes spy an incredibly risk averse profession to play. In the hands of a good player, it strongly contributes towards them being near impossible to kill.

15. Razor cat snare/root immunity. This might be the more controversial change that I would like to see, hear me out. I would like to see the root immunity completely removed from the razor cat set. It will still grant 100% snare immunity. The justification for this is that it would help the matchups for spy vs smuggler and spy vs officer as both professions have access to root abilities and would create potential for outplay. Further, it would also allow LSJ to root spies with force root. LSJ, at the moment, is probably the best profession to deal with a spy in a 1v1 due to its survivability, escapes, and wearing the spy down over time. However, a good spy shouldn't die to a LSJ as spy has far too many tools available to kite and wait for CD's to recloak. Giving LSJ the ability to root spies would likely make LSJ the counter to spy, giving LSJ an interesting place in pvp and spy a much needed counter.

 

[TheHighlander]

I am not sure whether you actually play on this server, but I suppose if you don't, it shouldn't necessarily preclude you from proposing changes. Then again...

Onto the topic:

It may be better to start by establishing what Spy is, or what it should be. Spy and Assassin seem to be synonymous in SWG terms, and I guess there's a consensus view that Spy is most or less just that, capable of delivering a fairly lethal spike.

I think the fundamental issue is that Spy is actually a profession capable of extreme and sustained spike damage (whether DOT or otherwise), and debuffs, paired with great defensive specials and the ultimate in get out of jail free cards. All round useful 5 piece sets help - but all of this is held up by fully functioning and useful expertise, allowing arguably the best ROI for each point spent, relative to other professions.

In short, Spy seems to be performing too well in almost every department, and if things do go wrong, the Spy has the ability to reset the fight entirely, with no chance of immediate detection during WOT, little risk afterwards, and fairly little when in Sneak.

In terms of constructing lists, anyone could make a list of the strengths of other professions, but other professions seem to have an obvious profession counter or innate weaknesses which exist in the game. From my playing, Spy does not have an obvious counter, and the difficulties of playing against such a profession increases greatly when you add additional spies into a single fight.

Overall, do the damaging specials do too much damage? Maybe they do... but the ability to sustain that damage over relatively long period of time seems to be more problematic. Action mismanagement is not an issue. For failed single target attacks, there is 0 action cost with Equilibrium. For successful bonus attacks with Preparation, there are no action costs. If your target isn't already dead, there is Fight or Flight. *Note if you are using 5 piece Razor Cat, you already have 20% ACR, in addition to suffering zero CC outside of Dire Fate.

My issue is that I am unsure to what extent Spy is deserving of action breaks alongside such high damaging specials, which do more damage as the fight goes on. If you compare Spy to other professions with a decent spike and/or sustained damage, those professions do not have the ACR or AC saves that Spy does, never mind the defensive capabilities.

As for Razor Cat, to what extent does having Snare/Root Immunity help balance the profession against others, and what does that offer to the game? In my view there's a net loss. Temporary immunity to snares/roots makes sense. 100% immunity does not.

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In terms of specials:

-Advanced Strikes and Spy's Fang are deadly, but the reapplication windows seem incredibly generous and more harmful than the damage alone
-Assassin's Mark is much too strong in this version of the NGE, and can be applied to multiple targets. It's duration is also very very generous
-Equilibrium for a single point could be the best 1 point spent in the game, I'm just not sure why this is something Spy needs
-Savagery + Resonance both seem to offer additional damage which turns groups with existing high damage into pain trains. I personally think that neither abilities offer something the game needs more of
- Smoke & Mirrors seems to be overkill when considering the strength of Snipe/Ambush and the use of a secondary heal etc when uncloaked
-Cloaked Recovery with general increased healing of up to 20% seems unnecessary, given all of the above

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Fundamentally, I don't think the damaging specials need as much attention as you might think. Nor do I think you need to necessarily touch WOT.

Although real detection is a joke (and the best anti-Spy ability being, you guessed it, only available as a Spy), by far the biggest issues are:

1) The ability to run around with snare/root immunity
2) The ability to largely forget about action management - using 1vs1 as a baseline

Damage becomes less of an issue when you allow a level playing field in terms of crowd control, and a level playing field in terms of damage potential vs action requirements.

*Note, even if only the Snare/Root Immunity were removed from Razor Cat, and if action management became normalised, this wouldn't have much impact on group play due to Officer runs and Officer Inspiration. You would end up with many of the same problems again. Either way, it would still be a big improvement in terms of balance.

Again, to reiterate - Spy has a role, and it should be effective at performing that role... but it shouldn't be an all rounder, which is what it currently is.

 

[Goldmansbarn]

Fundamentally, I don't think the damaging specials need as much attention as you might think. Nor do I think you need to necessarily touch WOT.

Although real detection is a joke (and the best anti-Spy ability being, you guessed it, only available as a Spy), by far the biggest issues are:

1) The ability to run around with snare/root immunity
2) The ability to largely forget about action management - using 1vs1 as a baseline

Damage becomes less of an issue when you allow a level playing field in terms of crowd control, and a level playing field in terms of damage potential vs action requirements.

*Note, even if only the Snare/Root Immunity were removed from Razor Cat, and if action management became normalised, this wouldn't have much impact on group play due to Officer runs and Officer Inspiration. You would end up with many of the same problems again. Either way, it would still be a big improvement in terms of balance.

Again, to reiterate - Spy has a role, and it should be effective at performing that role... but it shouldn't be an all rounder, which is what it currently is.

Cheers for the detailed and thoughtful response.

I set characters up here just after launch and keep an eye on the progress being made from time to time. Someone suggested that it may be a good idea to re-post the profession related threads and guides that I had on Legends over here. Given the reluctance to pursue meaningful profession change and I believe incompetence when it comes to the decision making of PvP related changes on Legends, Beyond is likely the best place to have these sorts of discussions. I'm not interested in this game at the moment given the decline in quantity and quality of PvP across the board, if that ever picks up and is combined with interesting profession changes, then, my interest may return.

On spy:

I would say that our views aren't all that dissimilar. I would definitely agree that the core issues are 100% root/snare immunity from RC and a lack of action management which is most obviously a problem with Equilibrium. If I had to prioritise two changes, it would be changes to these and that's where my efforts were directed on Legends with the former being implemented via root immunity removal. The consistent high damage output of spy is a problem and nerfing equilibrium would do much to help that, but I doubt it would be enough in and of itself, additional action nerfs to the areas you highlight would certainly be a viable route. Directly nerfing spies fang and the advanced strike debuff stacking would be another possible route as both are largely responsible for the consistent damage output and I think the former is a bit too strong against professions without a dot clear.

On WoT - I think that 30 seconds is too much and guarantees a fight reset for any player competent at the profession. This is a problem when bounty hunting and it is a problem in small-scale PvP. To my mind, a nerf here would be an easy way of increasing the risk associated with playing spy by a decent margin and decrease how often we encounter never-ending reset type fights against this profession. It's not the only option, I kind of like the idea of increasing passive detection across the board and possibly adding a third radius to the detect check, but that would need a good deal of messing around with and isn't nearly as simple.

I also want to highlight assassins mark and the need for a recourse on it, which would have been third on my list to push for on Legends. You can land 2-3k hits on assassins mark with no recourse and a high proc chance depending on weapon type. It's incredibly strong in small-scale and unreasonably strong in group PvP. A recourse here is a no-brainer to me and is somewhat analogous to the issue we had with the heal when hit proc effects lacking a recourse in the early NGE.

 

[TheHighlander]

Cheers for the detailed and thoughtful response.

I set characters up here just after launch and keep an eye on the progress being made from time to time. Someone suggested that it may be a good idea to re-post the profession related threads and guides that I had on Legends over here. Given the reluctance to pursue meaningful profession change and I believe incompetence when it comes to the decision making of PvP related changes on Legends, Beyond is likely the best place to have these sorts of discussions. I'm not interested in this game at the moment given the decline in quantity and quality of PvP across the board, if that ever picks up and is combined with interesting profession changes, then, my interest may return.

On spy:

I would say that our views aren't all that dissimilar. I would definitely agree that the core issues are 100% root/snare immunity from RC and a lack of action management which is most obviously a problem with Equilibrium. If I had to prioritise two changes, it would be changes to these and that's where my efforts were directed on Legends with the former being implemented via root immunity removal. The consistent high damage output of spy is a problem and nerfing equilibrium would do much to help that, but I doubt it would be enough in and of itself, additional action nerfs to the areas you highlight would certainly be a viable route. Directly nerfing spies fang and the advanced strike debuff stacking would be another possible route as both are largely responsible for the consistent damage output and I think the former is a bit too strong against professions without a dot clear.

On WoT - I think that 30 seconds is too much and guarantees a fight reset for any player competent at the profession. This is a problem when bounty hunting and it is a problem in small-scale PvP. To my mind, a nerf here would be an easy way of increasing the risk associated with playing spy by a decent margin and decrease how often we encounter never-ending reset type fights against this profession. It's not the only option, I kind of like the idea of increasing passive detection across the board and possibly adding a third radius to the detect check, but that would need a good deal of messing around with and isn't nearly as simple.

I also want to highlight assassins mark and the need for a recourse on it, which would have been third on my list to push for on Legends. You can land 2-3k hits on assassins mark with no recourse and a high proc chance depending on weapon type. It's incredibly strong in small-scale and unreasonably strong in group PvP. A recourse here is a no-brainer to me and is somewhat analogous to the issue we had with the heal when hit proc effects lacking a recourse in the early NGE.

Honestly, I would easily stick snare immunity well above Equilibrium, given the value of LOS, and the inability for most classes to utilise it when fighting against the profession in question. Being unable to get away via CC - forces a fight which in most cases cannot be won, due to the abilities available to the Spy. Snare immunity also makes chasing the Spy largely futile for most professions.

The removal of root immunity elsewhere has not done anything (as far as I can tell) to deter spies, or encourage players to play something else. This is because regular roots are few and far between, so the removal of root immunity is, to put it bluntly, largely meaningless. The removal of snare immunity, however, is not.

 

[Goldmansbarn]

Honestly, I would easily stick snare immunity well above Equilibrium, given the value of LOS, and the inability for most classes to utilise it when fighting against the profession in question. Being unable to get away via CC - forces a fight which in most cases cannot be won, due to the abilities available to the Spy. Snare immunity also makes chasing the Spy largely futile for most professions.

The removal of root immunity elsewhere has not done anything (as far as I can tell) to deter spies, or encourage players to play something else. This is because regular roots are few and far between, so the removal of root immunity is, to put it bluntly, largely meaningless. The removal of snare immunity, however, is not.

I would also place snare and root immunity above equilibrium and I agree that in conjunction with LoS it makes the profession incredibly difficult to chase and kill which is already a difficult (to say the least) profession to kill given WoT, avoid damage, burst of shadows, two heals, and the pressure that comes with its high and consistent damage output. Spy has far too much going for it in this current iteration.

I would have liked to have seen significant attention diverted to polishing the base game and to addressing profession related bugs, balancing issues, expertise changes, jewellery set changes, and ultimately move away from a meta that emphasised spy dominance in 1v1/ small-scale and GA officer/DOOM medic in group PvP. This is where most of my efforts were directed on Legends, but with very little success given the amount of energy myself and others invested. It's important to recognise that any profession related changes were incredibly difficult to push for and pass on that server and even those that passed were likely to be shot down by the decision makers on staff because they frankly don't understand the professions well enough or do not desire meta changes - which are essential for continued interest in PvP. I will say that the developers are competent and could have pulled off any changes we may have asked for, but it would never have gotten that far.

On the removal of root immunity, a few of us had also considered removing snare immunity, and removing both snare and root immunity and replacing it with a granted ability which would remove any/all roots stuns and put it on a decent CD. I'll say upfront that I think we could flat out remove root/snare immunity on RC and spy would still be far too strong due to many of the other areas in my OP and that we have discussed. Given how difficult it was to pass change, we pushed for the root removal which would allow groups with any profession that had a root to start punishing bad-mediocre spies running around in world. Smuggler would have another way of potentially escaping, although given how hard spy counters smuggler, the very likely outcome would still be death. Defensive stacking hybrid officer would have something approaching an even matchup with maybe a 40/60 advantage to the spy - at the top end I still think the best spies beat the best officers everyday of the week but it's a long and difficult fight with root immunity removed. For these professions, the root removal would mainly punish bad spies and solo spies with groups around to a limited extent.

The only other profession with a root (non-dire) is LSJ which is inconsistent but can be re-applied without a recourse and if RNG goes the LSJ's way...can be really nasty. LSJ was, to my mind, the best profession to set up as a counter to spy as it doesn't require any changes to LSJ and only a few spy changes which are much needed anyway to nerf it in relation to the other professions. Minimising the amount of changes needed was important on that server. A good LSJ will not die to a good spy, however, it is also true that a good spy will not die to a LSJ (unless dps LSJ gets lucky rolls on flurry spike damage or spy gets assisted aim and good RNG). Removing root immunity was one step in setting LSJ up as a counter, the next was to nerf WoT which would really put spy in a dangerous spot vs a good LSJ, spy tracking included, they'd have to be incredibly careful around a competent LSJ. Maybe an increase in detection chance on the LSJ reveal ability could have helped further.

The root removal by itself was ok, nothing special and certainly would never address the problem of spy. But it was never meant to be an update to solve spy, it was meant to be part one of multiple updates to try and resolve spy. We had to push individualised updates for professions due to the climate on that server, pushing for multiple or substantial profession nerfs would have been rejected by both the community and decision makers on staff.

More importantly, for this server, I wouldn't mind completely removing root/snare immunity from RC set and see how it plays out. A root/snare removal ability could be put in its place on a large CD - I would prefer the former. But it would need to be combined with nerfs to spies easy action management, opportunistic attack nerf, and I believe significantly increased risk either through WoT nerf or passive detection increases at a minimum.