Goldmansbarn
New member
Forgive me in advance as I am re-posting this thread from elsewhere and editing it to fit this server. I'm not currently familiar enough with Vanguard to be discussing its expertise and overall strengths and weaknesses, as such, it won't be discussed.
There are two claims that are fundamentally important to grapple with before I begin to lay out some of the issues that surround profession changes and balancing:
1) The professions are incomplete or require changes.
2) The professions are not in a sufficiently balanced state (pvp).
If you agree with either or both of these premises, then, I request that you begin to take seriously the prospect of substantial change to professions.
If you disagree with either or both of the above premises, then, my task now is to convince you that there are issues in both areas and that they are worth the attention of the community and the development time of staff. In what follows I am going to focus on premise one, the second premise will be touched upon but really requires substantial pvp experience and individualised threads addressing each profession in detail. The scope of what is needed here is large and my aim here is really to give a brief account of likely candidates for changes in profession expertise.
You may disagree with some of the examples I give, that's fine. I don't plan on justifying each choice made here as it would be far too time consuming and most are self-evident. For those that you want to contest, are confused about the choices, or believe I have missed something out, feel free to draw attention to it and I’ll respond.
With that said, first up is:
Jedi
Expertise boxes: Enhanced stamina, improved force throw, improved crippling accuracy, grace in motion, improved force shockwave, forsake fear, cloud minds, expansive trickery, Lethargy.
It is important to highlight these boxes as strong candidates for future changes because the Jedi profession is in need of change. Jedi does not have a valuable or unique role in group PVE or group PVP. To put it plainly, all else equal, why would you ever take a Jedi in your group over a commando? They are much more valuable professions as they fill the role of tank whilst also dealing significantly more damage. This is true in pve and is especially true in pvp where Jedi are near useless in group pvp outside of potential dsj in 3v3 or 4v4 battlefields on bunker.
Jedi needs to become a more defined and desirable profession in group-play. This, to my mind, is one of the clearest indicators that profession changes are required. However, a great deal of caution is required to not make Jedi too strong in 1v1 and small-scale whilst seeking to improve it in group-play.
Medic
Expertise boxes: Carbine accuracy, deuterium rounds, melee accuracy, poison knuckle, lethal strikes, flurry, bacta grenade.
More than any other profession I think medic is and would be the hardest to balance if efforts were made in this direction. I would argue this profession is overpowered in its current form in small-scale pvp and could use a serious nerf to reckless stimulation. At minimum it can stalemate any other profession. It is obviously essential in group pvp. Still, it has expertise boxes that are basically just filler boxes. It seems the intention behind the melee and ranged damage boxes on the first page was to give a sort of combat medic option, this could be explored and built on. Due to the amount of free points medics can potentially get, it would require a lot of care. Strikers set benefits could also be looked at if the combat medic idea were to be taken seriously.
I think this professions expertise is in a poor state with it being pretty cookie cutter. It can essentially pick up everything it needs with little sacrifice.
Bounty Hunter
Expertise boxes: Endurance, ambush efficiency, lethality.
Honestly, bounty hunter probably has the most balanced expertise and least amount of useless boxes. Overall, there is very little to complain about here, some changes could be made to the highlighted boxes, but compared to the other professions bh's have it good. Jewellery sets are all useful as well filling different roles. The profession is in a pretty good state.
Smuggler
Expertise boxes: Switcheroo, Blindside, skullduggery, eat dirt, sleight of hand, impossible odds, loaded chance cube, scandal, smooth move, under the counter.
Smuggler is a tricky one (also the one I am least familiar with). There are a fair number of useless or lacklustre boxes here and boxes that haven't been mentioned that are bugged. Melee is also in a strange position. I have heard a fair number of people claim the boxes in the top left of 'smuggler' are bugged, this is incorrect. Skullduggery is definitely working and I suspect IO is too, the descriptions on these boxes are just incredibly confusing. I am unsure if they are underpowered or not, it's difficult to say with them being tier 1-2 boxes, but a possible reduction in points here for full investment could be considered. The melee line is also just greatly outshined by the other options in the expertise - it has its place in pve, but definitely not viable in pvp. Overall this profession is pretty balanced at the moment, I advocate that pistol whip should have its defence strip removed along with kick. But I am also aware that this might not be a popular opinion - particularly with spy being as strong as it is.
Officer
Expertise boxes: Endurance, close combat, sure shot efficiency, misdirect anger, reinforcements.
Another profession that has some bugged boxes. The expertise, overall, is mostly fine. A number of players have requested that medical/tactical stim supply line to be moved to the profession wheel, this would save players respec costs and potential character slots for those that main officer and keep an officer buff bot around for the stimline. A QoL change as freeing up them points won't imbalance the profession. This profession is pretty much essential in group pvp and that's probably fine. For match-up based fights it is pretty balanced. It doesn't counter any profession, but will give most a good fight and is countered by at least two professions (dsj and spy).
The heroic sets could use some love, GA is too strong whilst hellstorm and Deadeye are too weak. I think a lot of this has to do with the high action cost of the professions abilities and the delay on the AoE abilities allowing for easy LoS or use of defensive abilities to avoid/mitigate the damage.
Spy
Expertise boxes: Initiative, shifty setup, cheap strikes, cheap shots.
It seems strange to talk about this profession having boxes that aren't used or could do with being changed given how ridiculously strong their expertise is. This, in my opinion, is the best expertise in the game. Still, it has boxes that could do with being changed as highlighted above. You might think initiative is worth investing in, that depends on your Crit + ST, but overall I would say it isn't worth the investment.
In terms of balance, this profession is very clearly not balanced in my opinion. You can read more in my thread here.
Commando
Expertise boxes: Remote detonator, flashbang, timer reset, angled shrapnel, improved explosives, mirror armor, enhanced stamina, hose down, keen eye, heavy ammunition, marksman
This profession has the most boxes that are in need of change, the remote detonator and rifle lines are seriously underwhelming. Grenadier set could maybe use a little love. In 1v1 matchups this profession is lacking for the most part, but it makes up for this by being insanely strong in group pvp. I think you could make the argument that it should be stronger in 1v1 matchups whilst taking a bit of a hit to how strong it is in groups.
Beast Master
I'm not going to comment too much on BM atm. It would require too much for me to go through the combinations with other professions, the skills of pets, and then the expertise. Nonetheless, it often feels that you as the owner lack control of the pet as it gets stuck on corners and walls, at the same time it warps through objects which can be a great benefit and a great detriment. In terms of expertise, the first nerf I would look for here is the 'improved pet recovery' box. If you manage to separate a pet from its owner and kill the pet that should be a massive blow the BM opponent, with this box it's of very little consequence. Some of the dots are too strong and I have already stated that I don't believe kick is balanced. The cooldowns in general seem really short for most abilities and over-tuned.
Making changes to and balancing the professions will not be an easy task, it will require a great deal of discussion and debate by players and staff prior to any testing. Hopefully this thread will put professions at the forefront of players’ minds for future updates. I want to emphasise again that this is a summary mainly looking at expertise boxes that need some love.
There are two claims that are fundamentally important to grapple with before I begin to lay out some of the issues that surround profession changes and balancing:
1) The professions are incomplete or require changes.
2) The professions are not in a sufficiently balanced state (pvp).
If you agree with either or both of these premises, then, I request that you begin to take seriously the prospect of substantial change to professions.
If you disagree with either or both of the above premises, then, my task now is to convince you that there are issues in both areas and that they are worth the attention of the community and the development time of staff. In what follows I am going to focus on premise one, the second premise will be touched upon but really requires substantial pvp experience and individualised threads addressing each profession in detail. The scope of what is needed here is large and my aim here is really to give a brief account of likely candidates for changes in profession expertise.
You may disagree with some of the examples I give, that's fine. I don't plan on justifying each choice made here as it would be far too time consuming and most are self-evident. For those that you want to contest, are confused about the choices, or believe I have missed something out, feel free to draw attention to it and I’ll respond.
With that said, first up is:
Jedi
Expertise boxes: Enhanced stamina, improved force throw, improved crippling accuracy, grace in motion, improved force shockwave, forsake fear, cloud minds, expansive trickery, Lethargy.
It is important to highlight these boxes as strong candidates for future changes because the Jedi profession is in need of change. Jedi does not have a valuable or unique role in group PVE or group PVP. To put it plainly, all else equal, why would you ever take a Jedi in your group over a commando? They are much more valuable professions as they fill the role of tank whilst also dealing significantly more damage. This is true in pve and is especially true in pvp where Jedi are near useless in group pvp outside of potential dsj in 3v3 or 4v4 battlefields on bunker.
Jedi needs to become a more defined and desirable profession in group-play. This, to my mind, is one of the clearest indicators that profession changes are required. However, a great deal of caution is required to not make Jedi too strong in 1v1 and small-scale whilst seeking to improve it in group-play.
Medic
Expertise boxes: Carbine accuracy, deuterium rounds, melee accuracy, poison knuckle, lethal strikes, flurry, bacta grenade.
More than any other profession I think medic is and would be the hardest to balance if efforts were made in this direction. I would argue this profession is overpowered in its current form in small-scale pvp and could use a serious nerf to reckless stimulation. At minimum it can stalemate any other profession. It is obviously essential in group pvp. Still, it has expertise boxes that are basically just filler boxes. It seems the intention behind the melee and ranged damage boxes on the first page was to give a sort of combat medic option, this could be explored and built on. Due to the amount of free points medics can potentially get, it would require a lot of care. Strikers set benefits could also be looked at if the combat medic idea were to be taken seriously.
I think this professions expertise is in a poor state with it being pretty cookie cutter. It can essentially pick up everything it needs with little sacrifice.
Bounty Hunter
Expertise boxes: Endurance, ambush efficiency, lethality.
Honestly, bounty hunter probably has the most balanced expertise and least amount of useless boxes. Overall, there is very little to complain about here, some changes could be made to the highlighted boxes, but compared to the other professions bh's have it good. Jewellery sets are all useful as well filling different roles. The profession is in a pretty good state.
Smuggler
Expertise boxes: Switcheroo, Blindside, skullduggery, eat dirt, sleight of hand, impossible odds, loaded chance cube, scandal, smooth move, under the counter.
Smuggler is a tricky one (also the one I am least familiar with). There are a fair number of useless or lacklustre boxes here and boxes that haven't been mentioned that are bugged. Melee is also in a strange position. I have heard a fair number of people claim the boxes in the top left of 'smuggler' are bugged, this is incorrect. Skullduggery is definitely working and I suspect IO is too, the descriptions on these boxes are just incredibly confusing. I am unsure if they are underpowered or not, it's difficult to say with them being tier 1-2 boxes, but a possible reduction in points here for full investment could be considered. The melee line is also just greatly outshined by the other options in the expertise - it has its place in pve, but definitely not viable in pvp. Overall this profession is pretty balanced at the moment, I advocate that pistol whip should have its defence strip removed along with kick. But I am also aware that this might not be a popular opinion - particularly with spy being as strong as it is.
Officer
Expertise boxes: Endurance, close combat, sure shot efficiency, misdirect anger, reinforcements.
Another profession that has some bugged boxes. The expertise, overall, is mostly fine. A number of players have requested that medical/tactical stim supply line to be moved to the profession wheel, this would save players respec costs and potential character slots for those that main officer and keep an officer buff bot around for the stimline. A QoL change as freeing up them points won't imbalance the profession. This profession is pretty much essential in group pvp and that's probably fine. For match-up based fights it is pretty balanced. It doesn't counter any profession, but will give most a good fight and is countered by at least two professions (dsj and spy).
The heroic sets could use some love, GA is too strong whilst hellstorm and Deadeye are too weak. I think a lot of this has to do with the high action cost of the professions abilities and the delay on the AoE abilities allowing for easy LoS or use of defensive abilities to avoid/mitigate the damage.
Spy
Expertise boxes: Initiative, shifty setup, cheap strikes, cheap shots.
It seems strange to talk about this profession having boxes that aren't used or could do with being changed given how ridiculously strong their expertise is. This, in my opinion, is the best expertise in the game. Still, it has boxes that could do with being changed as highlighted above. You might think initiative is worth investing in, that depends on your Crit + ST, but overall I would say it isn't worth the investment.
In terms of balance, this profession is very clearly not balanced in my opinion. You can read more in my thread here.
Commando
Expertise boxes: Remote detonator, flashbang, timer reset, angled shrapnel, improved explosives, mirror armor, enhanced stamina, hose down, keen eye, heavy ammunition, marksman
This profession has the most boxes that are in need of change, the remote detonator and rifle lines are seriously underwhelming. Grenadier set could maybe use a little love. In 1v1 matchups this profession is lacking for the most part, but it makes up for this by being insanely strong in group pvp. I think you could make the argument that it should be stronger in 1v1 matchups whilst taking a bit of a hit to how strong it is in groups.
Beast Master
I'm not going to comment too much on BM atm. It would require too much for me to go through the combinations with other professions, the skills of pets, and then the expertise. Nonetheless, it often feels that you as the owner lack control of the pet as it gets stuck on corners and walls, at the same time it warps through objects which can be a great benefit and a great detriment. In terms of expertise, the first nerf I would look for here is the 'improved pet recovery' box. If you manage to separate a pet from its owner and kill the pet that should be a massive blow the BM opponent, with this box it's of very little consequence. Some of the dots are too strong and I have already stated that I don't believe kick is balanced. The cooldowns in general seem really short for most abilities and over-tuned.
Making changes to and balancing the professions will not be an easy task, it will require a great deal of discussion and debate by players and staff prior to any testing. Hopefully this thread will put professions at the forefront of players’ minds for future updates. I want to emphasise again that this is a summary mainly looking at expertise boxes that need some love.